(no subject)

[lbd_nytetrayn]

Wow, I think this guy has hit on a large part of why I could never get into first-person in games.

Of course, I still want to try Metroid Prime 3, but still.

--LBD "Nytetrayn"

Comments

[kiapurity.livejournal.com]

It still feels unnatural when I play FPS in either POVs. Granted, I'm used to the third POV in MGS series but I strictly use the FPS trigger in MGS for accurate sniping. (Frigging gun cameras.)

[lbd-nytetrayn.livejournal.com]

For sniping or something, sure. But running around and shooting stuff? No thanks.

--LBD "Nytetrayn"

[shinkuu.livejournal.com]

I never like the argument of realism when it comes to games, but I have to agree with this guy. I think that, yeah, having a third-person view is better since, as pointed out, you can see to your character's sides (simulating peripheral vision) as well as, to a limited degree, behind the character. But I have to say, there are probably some cases where a 1st-person view just works better for the game.

In a driving game, I find that first-person really does seem to add to the sense of speed and immersion, but... I never find it easy to control. I'm always misjudging how wide the actual car is. And like someone said, the more you can see, the better you can react.

It was interesting to see how many people flat-out disagreeed with that guy, though!

[lbd-nytetrayn.livejournal.com]

Same on the driving.

--LBD "Nytetrayn"

[gelgameth.livejournal.com]

Y'know.. this mostly strikes me as an attack on the conventions of the first person shooter model of gameplay. Which is terribly flawed, and one of the chief reasons is that you -do- play the games with unnatural tunnel vision, and that many of the genre conventions have no basis in reality.

[lazy-blazey.livejournal.com]

I totally agree. I never cared for the first person point of view except in certain situations (like if you're trying to solve a puzzle or something).

It's funny though, I scrolled down to see the replies and was surprised to see a lot of people completely missing the point. Many of them spoke of being more "immersed" or whatever, and I'm calling shenanigans on that. I don't think they really believe that so much as attaching a word to a gaming experience that doesn't have a dude blocking a portion of the screen. Removing the character from your sight doesn't "immerse" you further into the game, dipwads. If you like it, fine, but I rather like to see what's to the side of and behind my character, for the most part. It gives me more options.

Now, if Sony or Microsoft invented a wraparound TV, then we have a whole different ballgame.

[lbd-nytetrayn.livejournal.com]

Now, if Sony or Microsoft invented a wraparound TV, then we have a whole different ballgame.

Too true.

--LBD "Nytetrayn"

[kyouryuu.livejournal.com]

"You didn't have to render the main character's model, as you would in a 3rd person game, and you also didn't have to worry about fuddling with the camera. However, with today's technology, these issues are now moot"

Wow. I want to live in this guy's world, where developing a reasonably smart 3rd person camera system is a trivial, "moot" point.

[gelgameth.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's the weak point in the argument. But the central issue is that the conventions of the FPS genre are not as intuitive, sensible or well. Grounded in anything as fans of the system believe.

...Cameras SHOULD be moot by now though. These days the only 3rd Person cameras that annoy me are those that aim for a really dramatic cinematic angle that... isn't helpful at all. It works great when the angle is either nearly fixed throughout the game, or responds directly to what the player is doing.

[bpmomega.livejournal.com]

Hmm... Personally, I'm not TOO fond of the first-person view, but it is appropriate for some situations.

One of the replies on that thread mentioned Unreal Tournament. And I've recently gotten into UT2k4. While I'm not a sharpshooter (my aiming is kinda lackluster), I found I did worse in third-person than first-person (the game has the ability to switch views!).

It depends on the game, I guess. For frentic shooters like UT, first-person does work best. For adventure games like Mario, third-person is best.

[flabio.livejournal.com]

Coding third person cameras is fun. Believe me, I know this from recent personal experience :)

I never play driving games first person, cause you simply can't see how close behind or to the side the competition is. It's very easy to accidentally collide in Forza2 when in first person.

But for shooters, I guess I've just gotten used to it. It was genre convention due to technical limitations originally, as he said, and I'm just used to it. Probably why I never got on with Prime much, it was too much of a departure from the norm for me.

Gears of War is in 3rd person of course, but it wouldn't really be any different in first, as they don't ever take advantage of it.

[fletch02.livejournal.com]

I've always been a bit ambivalent when it comes to the first person perspective, and I've had more problems with the controls then the perspective.

I do like the argument for third person though, I've died too many times from being shot at from behind and not knowing where to turn. So long as it was easy to switch to an aiming mode so I can shoot people who aren't necessarily in my field of fire then I would love third person perspective.

That being said, I can see the immersion argument for first person in single player FPSs. While I have never been entirely comfortable with Metroid's take on the subject, I don't know if games like Half Life or Bioshock, games who have no roots from side scrollers, would be the same from a third person view.

Also, I have no opinion on the racing issue because the only racing game I can play and be any good at is Mario Kart, and it sure as hell doesn't need a first person perspective.

-James

[lbd-nytetrayn.livejournal.com]

I do like the argument for third person though, I've died too many times from being shot at from behind and not knowing where to turn. So long as it was easy to switch to an aiming mode so I can shoot people who aren't necessarily in my field of fire then I would love third person perspective.

Be nice if they usually had some indication of where you're being hit from. Flash something on the left if from the left, right if right, down if behind, etc.

I'm not much into racing, either. Usually Mario Kart and Burnout. And I prefer third-person in either.

--LBD "Nytetrayn"

[fletch02.livejournal.com]

I know Goldeneye did that, and I think Halo might actually as well. Still you tend to die a lot more in multiplayer then you ever do in single player modes.

[lameazoid.livejournal.com]

Arguing realism. That's great. Because EVERYONE CRUSHES TURTLES AND MUSHROOMS UNDER THUR FEET OMG GAMES SHUL B3 100% REELZ@!!@!@`

Anyway, when you "walk sideways" You're not sidestepping, you're running one way while shooting another.

PS Circle Strafing is lame.

[lbd-nytetrayn.livejournal.com]

It just never feels quite right to me. "Realism" is subjective, but whether it's real or not, it never quite feels natural, which I think might be closer to what's being driven at. I just tend to feel more detached from characters in first person, especially when it comes time to aim my gun. That's where I hope MP3 feels more natural to me.

--LBD "Nytetrayn"

[lameazoid.livejournal.com]

I haven't played too many newer FPS games. I do enjoy them though. Personally I kind of write off the peripheral vision problems easier in a game like Halo where my character wears a helmet. I guess in general I don't consider them too much.

For what it's worth, I tend to play Second Life in FPS mode as well. Though I toggle into 3rd person probably as much as I'm in FPS mode. Especially since you can't build in FPS mode. Still, I love that you can turn on "see self in FPS mode" and look down and see your body there. A lot of FPS games lack that.

Also what may help in FPS games is if they start putting the gun in your hand instead of attached to your face.

...Argh...

[gelgameth.livejournal.com]

So. It seems like people either already agree and thus can see the sense in what this guy said, or they love FPSes and thus see this argument as nothing but a braindead argument of ZOMG. REELIZM = BETTUR.

So. Read what the guy actually said. He's not arguing ZOMG REALISM. He's saying that there are problems with it, many of which are extremely unnatural and only make sense to specialized, dedicated gamers. Considering said subset of gamers tends to rabidly defend the typical play style, control scheme, visual styles, and the like in their genre... to the point of outright dismissing games that don't look exactly like their own.. I think it needs to be said that the conventions and tropes of the genre don't exist for any good reason at all.

(Natural is not realism in this case. He means what can be understood and interpreted by players.)

Personally, I've never been able to get too deep into the FPS genre (which dominates 1st person games like WHOA), because the perspective always feels awkward for me on high action sequences. I just can't play them fast. The information I have is too limited. When people complained about Metroid Prime not being capable of classic Run & Gun gameplay techniques, I cringed. People like to sneer at the FPA label on the Prime series, but it's TRUE. Metroid Prime does NOT owe its heritage to Quake and Unreal Tournament like most FPS games. It's a different beast. Or it was.

Third person games aren't better by default, but he IS right that they give you more information that you would naturally have. And to someone who has NOT been playing FPSes with extreme dedication for years (considering framerates have only recently been good enough not to induce nausea in a hefty portion of gamers...), it's jarring not being able to tell when something is right over your shoulder without turning around. With this issue, games like UT are basically unplayable.

And.. it's all a valid point to raise, because art is always, ALWAYS better when it's built from, referencing, or saying something about... reality. When a style gets so turned in on itself that artists only reference other artists, you get either the inaccessibly snooty art house, or the hideous Deviant Art anime fan art.

Oh and. The first person perspective IS a good one to start with by default, even if the FPS is a flawed model. Nintendogs is a first-person game, and look how well that did. Not among HARDKORE GAMERZ, but in the general public.

Re: ...Argh...

[lbd-nytetrayn.livejournal.com]

I agree. Though I'm not completely opposed to first-person view, in cases like Nintendogs, it's so different than others that it's easy to forget that's the perspective, mostly because you're not moving at all (in the traditional sense).

--LBD "Nytetrayn"

Re: ...Argh...

[gelgameth.livejournal.com]

...Wow, actually never mind. I read more of the thread and.. I'm getting tired of the Op already >_>

I DO wish I had some way to cover for peripheral vision in FPS games, there are a lot of things I want from them. But the truth is, I'm not the hardcore FPS guy.


I DO feel neglected as a gamer sometimes, for not being an FPS fanatic, though. FPSes and sports games get a LOT of love from the developers, press and so on. So even though I actually do like the better made games, I tend to be reluctant to try. And um. I don't like Unreal very much, so it leaves a bad taste in my mouth >_>