State of Mega Man

[lbd_nytetrayn]

The sad truth, as it stands. We've become victims of our own popularity. Sort of.



Erdrick wrote:Quote:I don't care how many polygons are tossed onto the screen, the underlying gameplay of X8 is beyond old, it's dead. Mega Man should advance. Since it has not, I find myself wondering what makes this iteration any better than the 40 or 50 that have been released since the series' conception so long ago. The answer is absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing makes this game better than 40 or 50 other Mega Man titles, so why bother?:Unquote

I echo this man's sentiments exactly in regards to the Mega Man games.

The NES-bashing and retro-bashing part of his review, I do not care about. It's that last part that I can emphasize with. To others who have mentioned about Nintendo rehashing stuff like SSBM and Zelda:WW...

Keep in mind, they have not released like... 50 of those games over the past 15 years. Each and every one has had some evolvement or change that at least makes it feel new, while keeping the spirit intact.

Granted, since Nintendo cannot afford to hoarde their IP's anymore like the days in the 8-bit of yore, they are pumping out more Zelda, Mario, Metroid et al with more frequency, so in some respects, they are following Capcom's example.

But even Four Swords, on the GC, while at it's heart is a game that came to North America in 1992, the inclusion of the GBA and a hell of a multiplayer aspect makes it easier to deal with.

I reiterate something though:

I feel this way for Zelda, Mario and the other Nintendo franchises because I have not been run over, backed up over again and generally bludgeoned to death with sequel after sequel with minimal innovation and stagnant gameplay.

I used to love Mega Man... But since 1990 I realized, with the exception of the first MMX game and the MML's...

They are ALL THE DAMNED SAME GAMES. The only difference is some contrived plot thrown together in about 15 seconds, some tired boss characters and another cliched level here or there.

Capcom has saturated the MM series to the point that I simply do not give a damn about them anymore. There is such a thing as overkill, and Capcom has done more than that...

In homage to Capcom, I will make this analogy:

It's as if they pulled off M. Bison's Psycho Crusher move that the CPU uses at the end of SFA3.

If you remember how much that hurt, well, that is a small example of how they drained the life out of that series for me.

Now, I know Mega Man has his fans, still, and I can understand that. I mean, after all, my favorite games are the Dragon Quest/Warrior ones, and they are just as stuck in traditional gameplay styles as any Mega Man game.

Except Enix (S-E now, I suppose.) has released 8 games in that series. Add the remixes and dungeon/monsters spinoffs, and you have maybe 8 more.

That is over the span of nearly 20 years. Mega Man has about... Hell, I lost count years ago. Too many for my liking.

I want Capcom to take a break with Mega Man. Not retire, but just leave it be for a few years. Take some time to reflect on the past games. (That may take a long while, considering.) After such time that fans outside of the hardcore fanbase (Which may be the only ones left soon.) may actually anticipate a new MM game.

What should they do to regain some interest?

I have no idea. I'm no game designer. But what I DO know, is I want them to stop this hyperdrive assault of MM that is so relentlessly unending that it has dulled my interest in a series that I once anticipated on the same level that I still anticipate a new Dragon Quest release.

I own the MM Anniversary Collection on the PS2 and I have played MM1-3. The others, I have not touched, and likely never will. I really want to like Mega Man again, Capcom is just not co-operating with me.

No offense to any Mega Man fans out there. It's just how I feel for the series at this point in time. I do not begrudge anyone else for liking the MM games.

I don't really want them to stop with Mega Man games, I just want them to stop with the ones they've really been hammering the past few years(X, Battle Network, and maybe, MAYBE Zero), give them a bit of a break and some room to breathe, and give us what many of us have been wanting... a new game in the original series, and a new game in the Legends series. Still get our MM fix, but in a different way.

Frankly, I find the way you bring your opinion to the table much more respectable, though at the same time, I pose the same question to you that I pose to those in the fandom who pick up every new game, only to complain: why do you keep on? If you don't like it, stop feeding the machine. One guy says it's because he cares that he complains, though his stuff is more in tune to story or what X's armor looks like this game, than anything else.

And incidently, I'd be more than willing to go without the over-abundance of Mega Man for a bit, if it meant we might see a new, say, Bionic Commando or something.

Frankly, I think the problem is Battle Network. It's red hot, and with NT Warrior, it's bringing in more "n00b" fans who are only just realizing that Mega Man is a video game, and no doubt Capcom is capitalizing on that every way they can, including more X and Zero games, in addition to the BN load.

And I'm not entirely sure I can blame them. I don't think Capcom's had a property this red-hot since Street Fighter 2 first came out, so they're going to ride it as far as they can. And as series creator Inafune once said, the more it makes, the more money he can put into his other stuff when it's said and done... which seems to imply another Legends, or another original series game.

So it's a vicious circle right now, and an ironic one. Many compare Battle Network to Pokemon, though the only real comparison is perhaps the business model. And even then, Nintendo doesn't seem to release as many Pokemon games as Capcom does Battle Network games. CPS2 is responsible for BN, Legends, Classic Mega Man, and I think Zero to some small degree, tho maybe it's only Inafune there who does anything. So as long as BN is coming down the lines, the only other games there are time for are Zero(by Inticreates) and X(by CPS3).

As much as I like Battle Network, I'd say that fans of other Mega Man games have become victims of the game's popularity, and all we really can do is ride it out, and deal with what comes in between.

Granted, Inafune could probably farm out the original and Legends series to other teams, but I get the feeling those two are a bit too close to his heart for him to turn it over to others the way he has X(which wasn't even much his call) and, to some degree, Zero.

LBD "Nytetrayn"

Comments

[makou.livejournal.com]

Very well said. I do agree with you, to a point. They do need to give it a rest, then come back and do something different. With the short attention spans some people have, of course, if they waited two years and did another Megaman Zero title in the exact same vein as they are now, a lot of people would probably be fapping over it like it was entirely new (while others would still realize that it's still the same thing).

Honestly, for me, part of the reason that I like the series is that it's been able to run with its formula (with a few changes here and there) for so long, but still be successful. Don't get me wrong, I love it when they try something different -- Viewtiful Joe and Megaman Battle Network (when it was new) are shining examples -- but there are some times where I'm happy to pick up the 90th or so title in a series and almost (ALMOST) be assured that it's going to have some decent level of quality in all aspects. You know my opinion of MMX6 from a gameplay standpoint, I'm sure.

To me, that's the one of the shining points of the Megaman series. But you are entirely correct that it is also the series' biggest problem right now.

[lbd-nytetrayn.livejournal.com]

And the unfortunate thing is, the most popular one is the one made by the same development team who'd do the other two we want more of. So as long as BN sells, the only games we can get are X, Zero, and BN. :\

LBD "Nytetrayn"

[galapagos29.livejournal.com]

Except Enix (S-E now, I suppose.) has released 8 games in that series. Add the remixes and dungeon/monsters spinoffs, and you have maybe 8 more.

That is over the span of nearly 20 years. Mega Man has about... Hell, I lost count years ago. Too many for my liking.

That kinda baffles me. I hate when people say Mega Man is bad because it has "too many games". (Probably more of a chance that there will be a few good ones in there, anyway.)

And I'm not entirely sure I can blame them. I don't think Capcom's had a property this red-hot since Street Fighter 2 first came out, so they're going to ride it as far as they can. And as series creator Inafune once said, the more it makes, the more money he can put into his other stuff when it's said and done... which seems to imply another Legends, or another original series game.

Agreed. I stopped buying Battle Network games after BCC (though, I might given in for EXE4.5) yet I still give power to those who buy them - maybe after the craze dies down like Pokemon did (no, it's not dead yet but it's certainly died down), it will give more power to Capcom. And maybe Inafune will keep his promise and make another Legends game.

Makou, I've seen that page before... and damn, I bet they can't even list them all. At MMN we count 68 (http://www.megaman-network.com/series/mastergamelist.txt), and that includes games which Mega Man has just camoed in. I thought I had most of them, too! (I have about 80% of the games on Tim's list. :P)

P.S. That's the first and last time I use CSS in a LiveJournal post

[makou.livejournal.com]

There are some Japanese i-mode cellular phone games, and the Rockman Complete Works set was released as six separate titles. There is also a Megaman cameo in Pocket Fighters, and one in Marvel Superheroes vs. Street Fighter. With that, I can get it up to 85... but that's still two games that are missing.

Chances are, they also consider the Battle Network titles that have two versions separate games.

But regardless, a cameo doesn't make it a Megaman game, so I have no idea where they're getting that number from! The only way they could do it legitimately, as far as I can tell, is to count every possible release as separate -- meaning Rockman X and Megaman X are two different games on their list.

[lbd-nytetrayn.livejournal.com]

I think that's what they've done.

LBD "Nytetrayn"

[gelgameth.livejournal.com]

I think people who complain about Megaman not innovating enough are missing something.

The draw of the series is that the original mechanic, created way back in MM1, is just so goddamn fun that all the fans want is more of it. Most of the truly terrible games in the series have stemmed from a haphazard attempt to innovate , or just overall lazy design.

The appeal of the sequels lies in overcoming the new obstacles-it's almost like endless expansion packs for a classic game. Since this is the model, only a slight twist to the system is necessary to make it work.

Megaman 2 upped the boss count, added E-tanks and revised the "tool" part. Megaman 3 tweaked the tool part further, and added the slide (not to mention experimenting with ways to add more levels and characters-something I think the series should have kept). Megaman 4 added the charge. As for Megaman 5 and 6.. I don't know anything they did..

Megaman X revised the core mechanics, changed the themes for the boss characters, replaced E-tanks with Sub Tanks, and added the collectible armor and health expansions, but tool parts were lost, and in their place all we have are Robot Ride Armors. Megaman X2 added the ultimate attack, played with subquests and mid-stage challenges. Megaman X3 experimented with a lot of things (villains you could possibly destroy before their planned final appearance, revised RRA system, more robust armor system, long-ass levels..) but the only thing that really carried over from it was Zero. In X4 almost all the innovations I can think of came from the ability to play as Zero instead of X, and the system for his saber tactics. X5 allowed you to swap between stages, added the parts system, toyed with the armor system, and enabled ducking. One thing I wish they'd kept from X5 was the virus gauge. X6 combined the parts system with the much maligned rescue gimmick. All X7 added to the mix was the 'team' system, which X8 looks to make better use of. I won't comment on the addition of Axl until I can see how many of his X7 mechanics are kept for X8. X7 was actually a very different game from X1, due to many of the changes they made. And I would have liked to see them revise these changes to make them FUNCTIONAL, but simply put.. X7 wasn't bad because it was a Megaman game, it was just bad.

*deep breath*
Megaman Zero yet again rehashed the whole system, dropping boss weapons in favor of selectable weapons and element combinations, it added cyber elves in place of many older items, and included a more solid, if harsh, ranking system. Zero 2 added EX Skills, and played with "forms", added some sub-tank items back into the series, tweaked the weapons, and actually generally improved the core mechanics (this is difficult to notice, but you can actually hurt invincible bosses with some weapons now, like the 3-hit combo will deal full damage). Zero 3 completely rehashed and improved the elf system, added the "cyber space" feature which I hope to see them play with further, it tweaked the equipment system to be more customize friendly, changed some of the weapons, and did away with the level building system for weapons. The Zero series has actually been improving at a rather quick pace, and I'm curious to see where it will go.

So. The problem?... I suppose Capcom's releasing them too fast. Or maybe it's that some of the more recent X games have been so forced they were painful to play. Maybe it's that the creative twists to the series have slowed down (the first four games in the classic series had some brand new twist each time). Maybe it's that at some points Capcom has sacrificed fun in favor of new mechanics (Look at X6 and X7). Or maybe, some people just need to accept that sometimes, the appeal of the series really is that you're playing the same game with only slight tweaks. Just think about how many of the sequel games out this year are really just upgrades and expansions on the previous release.

I'll agree with the people who say the problem is that Capcom's just releasing them in too much of a rush, and forgetting some of the other series. And I think you're right about the heart of the problem as well.

[gelgameth.livejournal.com]

..Who'da thunk that a list of the changes to the Megaman series over time would've turned into such a huge post?

[lbd-nytetrayn.livejournal.com]

As for Megaman 5 and 6.. I don't know anything they did..

Mega Man 5 added Beat, if that counts for anything, and improved the charge mechanic. Mega Man 6 gave us "fake" bosses, and Rush Power Suits.

X6 combined the parts system with the much maligned rescue gimmick.

Wasn't really maligned until X6, as in X5 they weren't required for items, and they could come back.

X7's big innovation was 3-D, btw. Scramble Change originated in Xtreme 2.

The Zero series has actually been improving at a rather quick pace, and I'm curious to see where it will go.

Sort of scares me... most Capcom games seem to peak at 2 or 3...

...but then again, I've never terribly hated the successors so much, as it felt like they didn't improve too much.

Maybe it's that at some points Capcom has sacrificed fun in favor of new mechanics (Look at X6 and X7).

Had they gotten to do what they'd wanted to do, instead of what they were forced to rush out in X6, I think the changes would have been neat.

LBD "Nytetrayn"

[gelgameth.livejournal.com]

In both cases, probably. X7 actually has the potential for a really great 3D engine in there. They just spat it out too quickly, so the controls and damage ratios are all wrong. Obviously the music turned out well, though.

But yeah.. You're right. I was focusing more on debunking the idea that Megaman doesn't innovate enough. I doubt Halo 2 or Half Life 2 are that radically different from the games that preceded them either.

[makou.livejournal.com]

Halo 2 adds dual-wielding and some new weapons... other than new weapons, that's really it.

And I'm not sure I agree that the charge mechanic was improved in MM5. Losing a charge if you take damage is just annoying, and as far as I know, the only other game with that "feature" is MM6.

And since they're omitted: MM7 uses a combination of the old and new Rush systems (Coil and Jet are there, and there's the Super Adaptor), Beat is now useless, and is much more like a Gameboy title than the NES games (store included). And there's Bass. And Auto, if that counts. MM8 removes much of what had been added -- no rush adaptors, no energy tanks, no passwords (natch). Megaman & Bass just made a mess of things, going so far as to change the stage select system to something completely against the way the original series works.

[lbd-nytetrayn.livejournal.com]

As I recall, the charges were also cancelled in MM4 when hit. However, MM5 did improve it to the standard we know today, where if you hold down the button, the Buster charges. In MM4, you literally had to fire a shot every time you wanted to charge up, even if you were hit. It seemed a bit slower, too. And if that first shot hit the enemy you were attacking, that made it rougher, as then there's that invincibility buffer.

So yes, I'd definitely say it's an improvement, even if it's not as improved as X saw it to be.

And Beat's not entirely useless in MM7... he sort of makes a decent counterbalance to the lack of a wall-jump... the proverbial "Get Out of Jail Free Card" for pits.

Auto wasn't really an innovation, he just took over the job Light did on the Game Boy, and Roll took that over in MM8.

As far as MM&B goes, at least it gave us the different style of gameplay in Bass, who seems to have been a rough blueprint for the basic style of Axl's gameplay, as far as firepower goes. And it was a side-game anyway, so no biggie.

LBD "Nytetrayn"

[makou.livejournal.com]

You don't lose a charge upon taking damage in Megaman 4 (Mandi's page here backs me up on this). The "invincibility buffer" never changed after MM3, either. That's something that hasn't been brought up, either; I much prefered it that if a robot master was in its invisibility period, your shots would go through it just like theirs would through Megaman.

For some reason, it does seem to take longer to charge in MM5 than in MM4... and I think I know why. If you hold down the fire button as Megaman teleports into a stage in MM5, there is a noticable delay before he even starts to charge up. That's because the game still waits for the "initial shot" frames to end before charging, even if you don't see the initial shot animation. That's what I've observed, at least.

Beat: Unfortunately, as far as he goes in MM7... none of the jumps in that game are so hair-raising that he should ever really be needed, especially if you have the Super Adaptor. The attack bird would have very much come in handy, especially in one of the series' most frustrating final battles.

Auto: That's why I said "if that counts." ;)

MM&B: True, but at the same time, the Megaman Xtreme games are "side-games" as well, but they stay mostly true to the way the X games are handled. My only major gripe with the game, really, is the way stage selection works. It's just so non-Megaman.

[lbd-nytetrayn.livejournal.com]

MM&B is a little different from the Xtremes, in that the Xtremes reflect the GB styled MM games from the original GB more, I think. :)

And I thought he charged faster in MM5...

LBD "Nytetrayn"

[revokov.livejournal.com]

MM's beauty is in its simplicity. They try too hard now with crazy plots like evil energy or a nightmare virus or some such rot. It was refreshing in CM to have to deal with people who wanted to take over the world again without any of this crazy DNA/virus nonsense. Look how hooked we were on one line at the end of X3: "...X must one day destroy Zero..." Look how ridiculously awesome someone like Vile was, with only a few lines at his disposal. We all loved Bass because he was a stubborn bastard who uttered the firs MM curse word and quoted a proverb. MM had the ability to be original without going for terrible cliches, usually. I say 'had' because one look at Command Mission and I start choking. "I shall rule all...for I am invincible!" "You must be pretty lucky...or not, since you're about to meet your end at my hands!" Whoa, clever there. "Prepare to be ripped apart and born again as part of the new body of Sigma!" was far more intimidating.

Frankly, if you hold the basic controls, give me lengthy and challenging--but not stupidly frustrating *cough* X6--levels and awesome bosses, I'll play as many MM games as they release. They're like a drug. But X5 and X6 IMO failed miserarbly in the fun factor. I enjoyed X7 primarily because the bosses were a blast and the levels were interesting again. I don't know if X8 will do any better but I'm not enthusiastic. I mean, look at the bosses. Optic Sunflower? Jesus. I wanted SO badly for them to rehash the old villains...Storm Eagle, Magma Dragoon, Magna Centipede, and others who would be fun as hell to fight again.

I'm not holding out for another original MM game, though if it comes out I'll buy it. Another Legends would be beautiful, especially on PS2, but since the only series I play are original, X and Legends that's about where the musing ends for me.

[lbd-nytetrayn.livejournal.com]

It was refreshing in CM to have to deal with people who wanted to take over the world again without any of this crazy DNA/virus nonsense.

I actually know a person or two who felt it was too bland that way.

I mean, look at the bosses. Optic Sunflower? Jesus. I wanted SO badly for them to rehash the old villains...Storm Eagle, Magma Dragoon, Magna Centipede, and others who would be fun as hell to fight again.

But unless you've actually fought Optic, how can you say he isn't fun, unless you're basing it purely on something as superficial as what he looks like?

LBD "Nytetrayn"